POSTED UNDER Derma Roller REVIEWS
Significant Acne Scarred Man Tries the Derma Roller
ORIGINAL POST
Hi I'll contribute a review, because I think doing...
HIP2leanalignNovember 21, 2014
$60
Hi I'll contribute a review, because I think doing this pays it forward somehow. This website is my go-to for cosmetic research. Most people on this site have seen these little torture devices.
With a handle, these cylinders are covered in tiny needles that a few of us deliberately roll over our own faces 8-12 times up, then 8-12 times across, approximately every month.
It seems to deliver good results for the bold, provided that we keep our expectations relatively modest. I've got the full suite of acne scars from rolling scars, atrophic dents, and just general horror that I try not to think about. A timely newspaper article and some particularly horrific rosacea spider veins traveling across my once pristine nose finally inspired this cosmetic journey. My overall aim is around a 60-70% improvement the scarring. If the derma rolling in around 12 or 18 months, gives me a 20% improvement in scar depth, I will be THRILLED. I'm thinking laser, and a little targeted surgery for the balance of that 60-70% target, with a little judicial fillers. (At some point I'll do a separate post on the rosacea nose thing.) I am a white male, 41 years old. I use the 2mm needles on the derma roller, plus a 1.5mm stamp with 36 needles. The $60 includes both. I use Dr Numb for the pain (so I've included it in the price). I usually forget about the numbing cream until 2 rolls into each procedure... OUCH.
I really like the theory behind the derma roller... and of course the ridiculously low price. I do a little weight lifting (high intensity, very brief to failure only once a week), and it stuck me as working on precisely the same mechanism.
1. Apply strenuous, targeted trauma to site.
2. No. 1 initiates initiates the body's injury/inflammation/future proof biological response.
In the case of Derma Roller (or every laser) its too accelerate the generation of collagen... for the weights, its to trigger the strength, power and size of the muscle. I use OwnDoc. I enjoy her information and the take-no-prisoner opinions. Fun fact she states that she has Aspergers. I found this oddly comforting when sending money overseas and relying on advice that involved deliberate self injury., both due to the characteristic honesty of Aspies and their obsessive pursuit of logic, which I relate to a bit. (I'm a lawyer so offer your judgements about honesty... Welcome trolls!. Irrelevant commentary: I found it fascinating that the first guy that predicted the GFC via the collapse of the American housing market (who controlled a hedge fund) was an Aspie. The generalizations of obsessive logic, blunt analysis, and high focus served him well in reading twenty or thirty, two hundred page toxic loan legal instruments.
Anyway I've done three derma rollers which means that its too early to predict whether I'll get a result worth that is worth the pain. The balance of information suggests not to quit after a few times. People report turnarounds at eighteen months.
This makes sense to me. It took a long time to get an unhealthy facial dermis. Lots of neglect and self harm. Taking a year to get a 20% improvement using this process is a good target, at least from what I've read. I'll report back in.
With a handle, these cylinders are covered in tiny needles that a few of us deliberately roll over our own faces 8-12 times up, then 8-12 times across, approximately every month.
It seems to deliver good results for the bold, provided that we keep our expectations relatively modest. I've got the full suite of acne scars from rolling scars, atrophic dents, and just general horror that I try not to think about. A timely newspaper article and some particularly horrific rosacea spider veins traveling across my once pristine nose finally inspired this cosmetic journey. My overall aim is around a 60-70% improvement the scarring. If the derma rolling in around 12 or 18 months, gives me a 20% improvement in scar depth, I will be THRILLED. I'm thinking laser, and a little targeted surgery for the balance of that 60-70% target, with a little judicial fillers. (At some point I'll do a separate post on the rosacea nose thing.) I am a white male, 41 years old. I use the 2mm needles on the derma roller, plus a 1.5mm stamp with 36 needles. The $60 includes both. I use Dr Numb for the pain (so I've included it in the price). I usually forget about the numbing cream until 2 rolls into each procedure... OUCH.
I really like the theory behind the derma roller... and of course the ridiculously low price. I do a little weight lifting (high intensity, very brief to failure only once a week), and it stuck me as working on precisely the same mechanism.
1. Apply strenuous, targeted trauma to site.
2. No. 1 initiates initiates the body's injury/inflammation/future proof biological response.
In the case of Derma Roller (or every laser) its too accelerate the generation of collagen... for the weights, its to trigger the strength, power and size of the muscle. I use OwnDoc. I enjoy her information and the take-no-prisoner opinions. Fun fact she states that she has Aspergers. I found this oddly comforting when sending money overseas and relying on advice that involved deliberate self injury., both due to the characteristic honesty of Aspies and their obsessive pursuit of logic, which I relate to a bit. (I'm a lawyer so offer your judgements about honesty... Welcome trolls!. Irrelevant commentary: I found it fascinating that the first guy that predicted the GFC via the collapse of the American housing market (who controlled a hedge fund) was an Aspie. The generalizations of obsessive logic, blunt analysis, and high focus served him well in reading twenty or thirty, two hundred page toxic loan legal instruments.
Anyway I've done three derma rollers which means that its too early to predict whether I'll get a result worth that is worth the pain. The balance of information suggests not to quit after a few times. People report turnarounds at eighteen months.
This makes sense to me. It took a long time to get an unhealthy facial dermis. Lots of neglect and self harm. Taking a year to get a 20% improvement using this process is a good target, at least from what I've read. I'll report back in.
UPDATED FROM HIP2leanalign
3 months post
Close of 2014 review
HIP2leanalignDecember 26, 2014
This is just an update. I don't think that there's been significant change, after about four (4) rolls in three (3) months. I probably should compare at this point photos, but as I rolled last night, it would be premature. Due to flattering swelling, and unflattering redness - better to have a like with like images...
Derma rolling still feels intense/painful. I don't find it easier now then I first did.
My overall strategy remains to roll for perhaps 18 months, and then get an ablative laser, following with some fillers.
There's always risks. So far so good.
I included a picture of my range of skin care goodies below. Essentially, Tretinoin 0.05% for the heavy lifting (green labelled tube, and the greasy version - straight after the rolling (see red tube)).
I use Kiehl's C+ serum (seen below) immediately, and copper peptides within a day of the rolling to spur recovery.
The Aesop stuff is my go-to usual face wash, moisturizer, and sun protector (15+SPF usually, but I'm an office guy). If I'm hitting the sun seriously, then 30+ or more. I'd avoid sun soon after rolling given how vulnerable our skin is generally, and then when systematically punctured... Have a good 2015, guys and gals. x
Derma rolling still feels intense/painful. I don't find it easier now then I first did.
My overall strategy remains to roll for perhaps 18 months, and then get an ablative laser, following with some fillers.
There's always risks. So far so good.
I included a picture of my range of skin care goodies below. Essentially, Tretinoin 0.05% for the heavy lifting (green labelled tube, and the greasy version - straight after the rolling (see red tube)).
I use Kiehl's C+ serum (seen below) immediately, and copper peptides within a day of the rolling to spur recovery.
The Aesop stuff is my go-to usual face wash, moisturizer, and sun protector (15+SPF usually, but I'm an office guy). If I'm hitting the sun seriously, then 30+ or more. I'd avoid sun soon after rolling given how vulnerable our skin is generally, and then when systematically punctured... Have a good 2015, guys and gals. x
Replies (10)
January 23, 2015
4 rolls in 3 months might be too much. I've noticed that I don't see improvement for about 5 full weeks after treatment. Its strange, like basically overnight. Also, I seriously recommend topical vitamin c after rolling. I actually use it everyday. I think my results are far better than before I started using it. Of course this is confounded with needle length because I started using a 2.5 stamp at the same time I started using the vitamin c. Oh and also, it looks like you might need some 2.5 needles.
February 7, 2015
Hey mate,
First time I read in someone in RS who sounds so confidant and realistic. Thanks for your sharing your experience brothaa! ! I hope u will keep on posting your journey. I too have started derma rolling after doing all sort of treatment for acne scars. You name it and I did it. So helplessly I have started derma rolling now. I will post once I feel like worth posting my experience. I do have a few ques specifically to ask you.
1.Do you smoke? How do u think it can effect the outcome?
2. Do you think my type scarring (pleas check my prof) will benefit from 1.5 mm?
Thanks for reading..I would really a appreciate if you can answer me. Good luck.
February 11, 2015
I don't smoke, but I smoked a lifetimes worth between 20 and 30. Smoking will retard healing. It's literally puts a people at the back of the line for organ transplants for that reason. Studies galore on it. I'm not saying that rolling won't work for a smoker, but you won't get optimal results, and I'd consider supplements and anti-oxidants (especially the vitamin C straight on the site), to off-set some of those issues. It relates to causing poor blood flow into capillaries, and I'm sure a bunch of secondary biochemical mechanisms that inhibit healing. (Ideally quit, but I know that's MUCH easier said then done. Carson's "You Can Quit Smoking" book worked for me. I listened to it on my iphone relentlessly, and it somehow made the process really easy. I'll check out your profile, and add my 2 cents. It's just really late tonight, but I'll jump on in the next few days, I promise.
February 12, 2015
Thanks for your comment. Would appreciate if you can check my profile to have better knowing.
February 12, 2015
I took a look at your profile but didn't see a picture since May 2014. Did the discolouration take care of itself? I think dermarolling will raise some of those nicely. I'd also consider a stamp, even a 2mmone to target the deeper ones. They aren't all true ice picks I don't think, so I think some benefit is almost a certainty. It's definitely worth trying. The healing gap I'd start at six weeks though, just to be cautious around your pigmentation. Just my opinion remember...
February 13, 2015
Thanks. Yes, the discolouration resolved. I currently doing 1.5mm about one month apart and .5 mm in between. I also thought of using dermastamp near future. Thanks for your words. I will post pics soon.
UPDATED FROM HIP2leanalign
5 months post
Three months update... Feb 2015
HIP2leanalignFebruary 7, 2015
I thought to load a few photos, following that represent a 'healed state'... meaning not still red from the roller. I'm not sure if I was as cruel with lighting or gravity as my first photo. I should have loaded more first up, to get a better contrast. Anyway, I do think there are benefits. I'm impressed with this little tool on the whole. The biggest controversy on RS around rollers, is not whether they work or not... people seem to agree that they do - which is great.
The debate is more about whether using 3mm is dangerous, or rolling on the nose is crazy (I'm guilty of throwing that line out), depth... and secondly, timing between rolls. Some insist 6 weeks, others insisting 21days is the magic number. Putting aside that its absurd that every human has identical optimal depth/timing/responses, to get a clear consensus on "general effectiveness", clinical trials would be SO useful to answer these questions. Acne scars are so devastating and this is SUCH a cheap and relatively option, its really one of those things we should have definitive information about. I'm a high intensity training guy, so I'll do 15 minutes of weights to failure once a week, because of studies showing the hormonal cascade effect to body composition this does... though they use bikes, 20 sec high intense, 40 sec recovery, repeat (usually - or a variation). The thing is these studies on HIT showed that people can get something close to 87% of the benefit from 4% of the time invested. The parallel is that both this protocol, and the exercise, is about delivering a measurable, deliberate and highly controlled pro-inflammatory crisis, and then our bodies, manufactures the healing response in each case... both improving the results. So perhaps 14 days is better. Perhaps 3mm is better than 1.5mm for a deep scar? What if 1.5mm is worse for a atrophic dent, because there is so little collagen there, that a deep puncture is worse then a more shallow one? I assume the opposite, by going extra hard on the deep areas? Anyway, this is a rant. I apologize if it sounds self-indulgent. I just want to highlight the point we're all experimenting, and dearly hoping on balance our risks are paying off. So far with the roller, I'm having success. Good luck everyone reading or trying it yourself!
The debate is more about whether using 3mm is dangerous, or rolling on the nose is crazy (I'm guilty of throwing that line out), depth... and secondly, timing between rolls. Some insist 6 weeks, others insisting 21days is the magic number. Putting aside that its absurd that every human has identical optimal depth/timing/responses, to get a clear consensus on "general effectiveness", clinical trials would be SO useful to answer these questions. Acne scars are so devastating and this is SUCH a cheap and relatively option, its really one of those things we should have definitive information about. I'm a high intensity training guy, so I'll do 15 minutes of weights to failure once a week, because of studies showing the hormonal cascade effect to body composition this does... though they use bikes, 20 sec high intense, 40 sec recovery, repeat (usually - or a variation). The thing is these studies on HIT showed that people can get something close to 87% of the benefit from 4% of the time invested. The parallel is that both this protocol, and the exercise, is about delivering a measurable, deliberate and highly controlled pro-inflammatory crisis, and then our bodies, manufactures the healing response in each case... both improving the results. So perhaps 14 days is better. Perhaps 3mm is better than 1.5mm for a deep scar? What if 1.5mm is worse for a atrophic dent, because there is so little collagen there, that a deep puncture is worse then a more shallow one? I assume the opposite, by going extra hard on the deep areas? Anyway, this is a rant. I apologize if it sounds self-indulgent. I just want to highlight the point we're all experimenting, and dearly hoping on balance our risks are paying off. So far with the roller, I'm having success. Good luck everyone reading or trying it yourself!
Replies (16)
February 7, 2015
Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments and for sharing your experience. I agree that the dermaroller technique clearly is working well for many of us who have acne scars...I am VERY happy with my results thus far. It IS frustrating that there are so many unknowns as far as how to best utilize the technique. I think that folks who want to try this should probably start conservatively (perhaps use shorter needles at first, and longer times between treatments) and then "ramp up" from there as they get a better sense of how they tolerate it and how it works for them individually. There is likely a lot of room for "customization", so long as you give yourself a reasonable enough time between treatments for the skin to recover (this isn't something a person should do every day, unless they're using the very smallest of dermaroller needles for improving "product absorption" through the skin).
February 11, 2015
Thank you Jennismith2; Agree except see my comment above, and second, that even for product absorption, I'd be concerned about every day, even with a .5mm. Injury is injury, and chronic inflammation (CI) is injury that never quite heals... and CI is associated with every disease there is.
February 10, 2015
Regarding jennismith2's comment on February 7, 2015.
Do NOT 'ramp up' your use of the dermaroller. It's not a drug. It's not about tolerance either. You're stabbing yourself in the face a crap-ton.
The man who created the roller is a South African doctor named Des Fernandes. In his initial exploration his thinking was similar to jennismith2's, but after a patient couldn't get back to him for 3+ months he was very surprised to find that she actually looked MUCH better than he anticipated. It was at that point he realized that what the skin needs most is repair time between needlings. If you're doing what's now considered best practice - 10x10 (imagine the surface you're going over as a grid, each square should get rolled 10 times horizontally and 10 times vertically). You'll want to roll AT MOST every two weeks, but better to go 4 or six weeks at least.
Each time you roll you're damaging your skin pretty intensely. You want it as fully recovered as possible before you roll again. (IMO, excessive rolling could cause sagging, even as the skin gets smoother). People who roll more than once per week are just enjoying the 'glow' of inflammation. Long term inflammation is very bad for you.
Always ALWAYS roll less than what you think you could do. The biggest thing you need is patience.
February 11, 2015
With regards to jennismith2's comment, I don't think that she meant 'ramp up' in the sense of loading more weights every week in a gym, or jacking up your medication as your tolerance gets further established. She's commented enough here, for me to be pretty confident that she meant 'start cautiously... beware of adverse responses". I think the point you make about the deliberate damage -> healing -> damage process and it being essentially pro-inflammatory is important. I think Jennismith2's views on the whole though is to 'test first and then establish the level that appears to deliver you an optimal response. 'Best practice' as you say, appears to be 1month or six weeks, but as I've argued, this is an incredible generality, and depends hugely on the depth of the needle... i.e. the injury, and finally there's literally no serious study that I can find that would appear border on 'best practice'. Don't get me wrong, because i strongly agree with the statement of yours "You want it as fully recovered as possible before you roll again.... and "long term inflammation is very bad for you."
February 10, 2015
This comment is related only to your post. It sounds like you're taking an intelligent, somewhat measured approach. Going deep on the dent scars is probably a good way to go. You could also try some suction tools available on Sarah Vaughter's site. I recently got a 'Derminator' and while my initial reaction is ambivalent (my use of rollers and 'nators is primarily anti aging) it could be useful in your circumstances, and long-term more affordable/flexible. Check it out. PM me if you want more info. (can one even PM on this site?)
February 14, 2015
I suspect that the healing process in muscle tissue, post workout is quite a bit different from the healing process following puncture wounds to the skin. Muscle tissue is designed to heal quickly. The healing process following needling involves generation of collagen fibers which is far slower. I've been tempted to roll more often but I don't want to reverse the progress. I have noticed that the results kick in after about 5 weeks as I've said before. I don't really know what risk there is in using 3 mm needles. It hasn't caused me a single problem.
February 17, 2015
I'm tempted by 3mm myself. There's no debate from me that there's a difference between a workout and a wound, but muscle synthesis is triggered by the breakdown/micro-tears in tissue - these ARE wounds. The collagen likewise gets synthesized from the tearing/breakdown in existing and surrounding collagen.
Yes, there will be timing differences for recovery. Just like 3mm may benefit most from 5 weeks, and 2.5mm on thicker dermis may maximise recovery or super-recover (improvement) better from a 3 week window.
I'd like a good controlled study with a few thousand participants, because there's no way I can see logically for a 5 week window to work be necessary for a 3mm wound, and a say a 0.5mm wound. This would be too counterintuitive from the normal biological experience for my mind. Again, a study might prove me wrong, where as one person't experience never will... unless it's my own!
February 17, 2015
Healing might occur that fast because as you said, it is a tiny wound. But healing isn't the same as collagen generation. I agree there need to be controlled studies!
Replies (17)
I am so glad that you decided to share your derma roller experience with us. I am so tempted to try it, I also have deep rolling acne scars and some fine lines. Can you clarify something for me, what do you mean by the "stamp". How much did just the roller cost? Do you find that Mr. Numb helps? Thanks again for sharing your story here on RealSelf, I look forward to your updates.Â
Very interesting, thank you for clearing that up for me. Would you be willing to do a video of your treatment?
Sounds like you're on the right track, and going with a source that's pretty excellent. I've had a few email exchanges with Sarah V. ***removed website*** and she's pretty darned good. :)
I'm surprised you use those 2mm rollers. IMO, the stretching of the skin and 'oar-like' motion of the needle is much higher than optimal at that depth. (I use a 1mm roller) The stamp is probably a better option at those depths for the reasons mentioned above. You might consider getting a DermaJet from ***removed website***. They go straight in/out and you can 2.0 to your heart's content!