POSTED UNDER Derma Roller Reviews
Needling Laser Damage and Acne Scarring
UPDATED FROM dutchguy
2 months post
Quick update: Third treatment and lost photo's :(
dutchguyAugust 7, 2015
$300
Sorry, it took so long. I've been on holidays since the last treatment and I accidently deleted the photo's because I was fiddeling with the cards to take with me. So sorry guys, no photo's this time.
I can say that I went deeper this time and had lots of bleeding on my cheeks. I went 2,5mm deep in the center of my cheeks and enjoyed some nice micro-swelling afterwards. Unfortunately I also had more peeling of the skin, even after 5 days! I've also made a milestone: I've allowed for careful sun exposure throughout my vacation and actually got some pigment back after laser, so that's great! During the night, I was back on Emu oil for damage control after sun exposure and it worked as hoped.
Now for the billion dollar question: Did it actually reduce the scars? - unfortunately, not really. But that's to be expected after just three treatments. Maybe there's some change, but I can only compare when I'll start the next treatment (+ photo's of course)
I can say that I went deeper this time and had lots of bleeding on my cheeks. I went 2,5mm deep in the center of my cheeks and enjoyed some nice micro-swelling afterwards. Unfortunately I also had more peeling of the skin, even after 5 days! I've also made a milestone: I've allowed for careful sun exposure throughout my vacation and actually got some pigment back after laser, so that's great! During the night, I was back on Emu oil for damage control after sun exposure and it worked as hoped.
Now for the billion dollar question: Did it actually reduce the scars? - unfortunately, not really. But that's to be expected after just three treatments. Maybe there's some change, but I can only compare when I'll start the next treatment (+ photo's of course)
UPDATED FROM dutchguy
22 days post
2nd treatment
dutchguyJuly 4, 2015
Today I performed my second treatment, after waiting for more than three weeks after the previous one. I decided to change the routine, by applying copper peptide serum right after needling. I'm still not comfortable spraying Vit C sollution directly after needling, because it will probably sting like hell and might even irritate the skin. Meanwhile, the temperature is 35 degrees Celsius outside and I regret not being able to enjoy the sun today. I did this treatment during the day and shot the pictures with another lens. I decided to show you the actual pinpoint bleeding that the Derminator is causing.
Replies (5)
July 4, 2015
I forgot to mention that the needle depth was 1.5mm, just as before. I read scarwarrior's review (derma roller) and I'm considering to increase the depth to 2.5mm next time.
July 5, 2015
Any positive changes to your skin thus far? I realize this is a long process. I have done two sessions and I feel like maybe my scarred pores look a little flatter? Too soon to tell though ...
July 5, 2015
Lef0x just updated her review on Dermabrasion and stated that it seems it has gotten rid of some of the fine lines caused by the laser.
July 5, 2015
No changes as of yet. I do notice the micro-swelling by now, but that is not permanent and I'm fully aware of that. I can even say that I percieve my skin to be worse, but that could be because I'm more self-conscious right now. I'll try to make pictures in overhead bathroom lighting next time, just as I did the first time.
July 5, 2015
It's good that you don't have rolling scar pitted scar and bumpy bro, i'm not against needle but ill be honest with you, needling will not work for our skin, needling is almost the same like Non ablative laser, they create micro-swelling for couple months during the process and trust me let it goes for a year the scars will come back to normal again. The people that claimed needling works because the micro swelling made them in delusion, let's be real, your scar or mine are hard to treat since you are allergic to Laser, i suggest you go for surgery (subcision+excision or injection) , ive done 5 times non-ablative laser, 6 months post now no change at all bro, i'm planning for an Injection+co2 laser or subcision+excision, Google it 95 out of 100 this procedure worked and you 100% see improvement, 10 out of 100 Laser doesn't work but in that 10 peoples some got laser damaged. By doing a research for a year now i know nothing better than a surgery, Most of Doctor just LIE LIE LIE to us all they want is money 90% of them don't really cares, that's why we gotta look for the honest one. Check my profile bro, you see my scars, next year i'm gonna head to Asia for injection+co2 ill keep it update, if this procedure won't work, i think i might fly to Washington Bellevue to see Dr Phillip Young. Good luck to you bro hope all the best for u.
July 5, 2015
Micro swelling does not last month's it lasts weeks at most. Ad we age we continue to lose collagen and fat so of course with time if he were to successfully treat his skin with needling as he got older they would again be seen due to the fact that the ageing process continues. Needling would very much be an ongoing process and that's true regardless of whether you're needling laser damaged skin or healthy skin. As for Dr. Phillip Young stay far away very, very far. Several lawsuits pending on him, multiple bad reviews with photos not on just this site.
July 5, 2015
DeathEmperor, I appreciate your concerns and I think there's some truth to it. But on top of the general needling techniques, I have a few tricks up my sleeve. I ordered a suction cup set along with the needling device to increase blood flow after needling. I plan to introduce this method on some of the box car scars, as I read that they will raise up under the pressure. As for the pitted scars, my needling device also has single needle cartridges. Intense and deep single needling an ice pick scar can gradually break up the binding structures underneath, although this is a very slow proces. Either method will take increasingly longer than subcision or excision, but I'm willing to try these nevertheless. Micro swelling does not even last two weeks, as you'll probably see in my pictures. There is no noticeable difference in scar depth or smoothness yet. This is why I also don't take any pictures at a few days post-op, because I'll know I trick myself in perceiving the micro-swelling as an improvement. There are several promising stories on acne dot org, that show steady improvement over a very long time. (even several years)
July 6, 2015
My laser induced micro holes responded quickly and well to single needling. I first dermarolled over them, then stamped. That gave some improvement but not nearly the improvement that single needling gave.
July 7, 2015
Wow, that's really good news! I'll try single needling when I have available downtime. How did you single-needle your scars if I may ask? I read that some had succes after using a diabetic needle to repeatedly poke the scar at several angles. I only have the option to poke my scars at a straight angle due to the machine I'm using.
July 7, 2015
Diabetic needles work well for single needling. I got my needles from Vaughter's site. They are 1.8 mm I pierce each hole/scar about 5-10 times, depending on the size of the hole. I go in directly in, straight down, a couple times, then I angle from the different sides a few times, to break up the borders. Where the results with stamping (and also using a dermapen) were slow and steady, with single needling the results were rather rapid. A warning though, it takes longer to recover, and instead of being the same red/pink color all over, your skin may be more nasty splotchy looking. I don't recommend using products with Vitamin A in them right after needling, or Vitamin C. Vitamin C because it is too irritating. Vitamin A because no research has been done to show what happens when products like Retin A are able to penetrate way deeper. I am concerned about so many people coming forward and saying they have damage and/or what looks like fat loss from Retin A, and I personally wouldn't risk allowing it to penetrate way deeper right after needling. I also stopped using Infadalon after needling for the same reason (it contains vitamin A).
July 7, 2015
To better clarify, I do take Vitamin C by pill after needling since it is needed to build collagen. However, I stop putting it topically on my skin the day before needling, and start back up a few days after.
July 6, 2015
First of all, I dont think it looks that bad, you seem to have a very good jaw and some acne scars won't be the focus point of normal people looking at you.
All these treatments are based on the idea that destroying tissue activates the body to heal, and hopefully create better looking scars. If the body doesn't heal the skin in the way you hope, there is nothing more you can do about it. It's as simple as that.
I highly suggest stopping any treatment right now. Especially since it is summer and the strong sun will do no good. If in 4 to 5 months you still have a strong need to 'fix', try 3mm needling. It is the preferred depth, especially for men, when dealing with acne scars. This is painful and not many people can tolerate this by only using a numbing cream. It will bleed, if it isn't needles are getting deep enough. It is important to make sure the skin and needles are sterile.
Sources: http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Guide-Percutaneous-Collagen-Induction/dp/1850972532
http://www.kvm-medizinverlag.de/out/media/Illustrated_Guide_Percutaneous_Collagen_Induction.pdf (20-30 pages)
All these treatments are based on the idea that destroying tissue activates the body to heal, and hopefully create better looking scars. If the body doesn't heal the skin in the way you hope, there is nothing more you can do about it. It's as simple as that.
I highly suggest stopping any treatment right now. Especially since it is summer and the strong sun will do no good. If in 4 to 5 months you still have a strong need to 'fix', try 3mm needling. It is the preferred depth, especially for men, when dealing with acne scars. This is painful and not many people can tolerate this by only using a numbing cream. It will bleed, if it isn't needles are getting deep enough. It is important to make sure the skin and needles are sterile.
Sources: http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Guide-Percutaneous-Collagen-Induction/dp/1850972532
http://www.kvm-medizinverlag.de/out/media/Illustrated_Guide_Percutaneous_Collagen_Induction.pdf (20-30 pages)
July 7, 2015
g6497695... First of all, I would like to thank you for stating that the scars on my scars are often not the main focus for other people. I hold this to be true, though it took me very long to realize this after laser damage. I think that good people ultimately judge you on the virtues you have achieved in your character. I fact, this realization has changed the way I think about a lot of things. I now mostly try to avoid vain people altogether, and I tend to see things clearer for what they are.
Having said that, I think you misunderstood something fundamental about skin needling. It doesn't destroy the skin like ablative laser does, in that it doesn't burn coulombs of your skin away. It creates micro-channels and breaks tissue apart to promote blood flow and to induce collagen production. Protection from the sun is essential after skin needling, although the downtime won't be as long as peels, dermabrasion or ablative laser procedures because with needling the epidermis is preserved.
Having said that, I think you misunderstood something fundamental about skin needling. It doesn't destroy the skin like ablative laser does, in that it doesn't burn coulombs of your skin away. It creates micro-channels and breaks tissue apart to promote blood flow and to induce collagen production. Protection from the sun is essential after skin needling, although the downtime won't be as long as peels, dermabrasion or ablative laser procedures because with needling the epidermis is preserved.
ORIGINAL POST
Hi, I'm a 29 year old male from the Netherlands....
dutchguyJune 24, 2015
Hi, I'm a 29 year old male from the Netherlands. I’m writing this review almost 1,5 years after a botched Smartxide CO2 laser treatment to improve acne scarring.
The post laser story:
Like so many fellow sufferers, my laser damage wouldn't even be acknowledged by the practitioner because they are looking at the difference in depth of individual scars that were already present before the treatment. They downplay the sudden change in color, texture and new micro-scarring in previously healthy skin, knowing full well that these unwanted side-effects are known to occur in some patients. I was well informed about side-effects and signed a multi-page statement not to seek legal action afterwards. I simply assumed that I wouldn’t be one of the few individuals who would experience these negative side-effects. Boy was I wrong! For months on end I suffered from inflammation, dehydration, milia and additional break-outs while figuring out what kind of topicals my skin would tolerate in order to alleviate these side-effects. For me, emu-oil application during the night would help with the dryness. A gentle cleanser like Cetaphil Restoraderm, followed by a application of a non-comedogenic moisturizer like Cerave (which I actually didn’t use in the beginning) can help with the milia and new acne. I actually used a vitamin C, E and Jojoba-oil cream, called Alhydran, which is known to help with burns but also happens to hydrate the skin without making it look messy. At about 3 months post-laser, I did weekly half-hour long skin-massages using Argan oil to prevent new scars from forming. I’m not saying you should do exactly the same, but it helped with my particular situation.
The needling story so far:
At roughly 2 months post laser, I tried a 0,5mm derma roller at home to see if needling would be a viable option to further treat my scars. I can personally testify that my skin would turn even more red than it already was and would peel like crazy a few days afterwards. That was my first experience with skin needling, the second was a 2 to 3mm Dermapen treatment in April 2014, which caused additional milia and redness that would continue on for more than 2 weeks, which wasn’t at all pleasurable! Although these treatments didn’t cause any long term adverse affects, in hindsight I should have waited for at least 6 months before doing any serious needling because it took that long for the redness to subside from the laser treatment. It sounds really stupid, but I did’t took any clear before/after pictures during that time. Having not picked up on needling because of the negative experiences and minimal perceivable results, I put all my hope in an expensive procedure called Recell. At that time I still had a job, but in the beginning of 2015 they had to let me go because of financial setbacks of the company, rendering my plan for Recell unfeasible. It was at that time that needling came back into the picture and I just heard that a new product called “Derminator" was available at Owndoc. It is some kind of Dermapen, but without causing the so-called micro-tearing which is typical of the Derma Roller and Dermapen. On paper it sounded all great so I ordered the machine and tested at 0,25mm depth, following a freshly prepared vitamin C application. There weren’t any negative adverse effects and I even noticed a nice glow in the days afterwards. Although my general impression was positive, it would take another 5 months until the very first real treatment described in this review.
1st treatment:
The aim for this series of treatment is to find out if derma needling is a viable option against post-laser adverse effects, as well as a way of treating existing acne scarring. I performed the first Derminator treatment at home on the 12th of june 2015, according to a slightly adapted protocol that I used from Owndoc. Note: this isn’t based on any medical advise, so don’t blame me if it doesn’t work for your particular situation if you choose to try it.
1) Prepping the skin using freshly prepared vitamin C solution following a special retinol ointment application every night for at least 5 days beforehand.
2) Steambath just before needling to soften the skin. (I actually skipped this step the first time)
3) Applying optional numbing agent. (I can stand the pain though)
4) Performing the treatment, taking all neccesary hygienic precautions like cleaning the face with alcohol.
5) Rinsing off any residual blood and air-dry the face, not using a towel or tissue.
6) Applying special retinol ointment using sterile latex gloves, applying this daily until the redness decreases substantially.
7) After the first day, also massaging the skin using vitamin C + copper peptide serum and continuing this for another 3 to 5 days.
8) Resume normal moisturizer after the redness has subsided.
Afterwards I made sure to clean the unit and the needle cartridge according to the instructions from the manual. My face was very red and I had a lot of pinpoint bleeding. The needle depth was 1,5mm and the treatment itself took roughly 5 minutes. After three days, the redness was almost completely gone, making it possible to perform the treatment over a long weekend. I’m planning to repeat this every 3 weeks, following a skin update on RS shortly after. I might introduce the suction cup method for the tethered scars next time, but I doubt they will improve any ice-pick scarring though.
The post laser story:
Like so many fellow sufferers, my laser damage wouldn't even be acknowledged by the practitioner because they are looking at the difference in depth of individual scars that were already present before the treatment. They downplay the sudden change in color, texture and new micro-scarring in previously healthy skin, knowing full well that these unwanted side-effects are known to occur in some patients. I was well informed about side-effects and signed a multi-page statement not to seek legal action afterwards. I simply assumed that I wouldn’t be one of the few individuals who would experience these negative side-effects. Boy was I wrong! For months on end I suffered from inflammation, dehydration, milia and additional break-outs while figuring out what kind of topicals my skin would tolerate in order to alleviate these side-effects. For me, emu-oil application during the night would help with the dryness. A gentle cleanser like Cetaphil Restoraderm, followed by a application of a non-comedogenic moisturizer like Cerave (which I actually didn’t use in the beginning) can help with the milia and new acne. I actually used a vitamin C, E and Jojoba-oil cream, called Alhydran, which is known to help with burns but also happens to hydrate the skin without making it look messy. At about 3 months post-laser, I did weekly half-hour long skin-massages using Argan oil to prevent new scars from forming. I’m not saying you should do exactly the same, but it helped with my particular situation.
The needling story so far:
At roughly 2 months post laser, I tried a 0,5mm derma roller at home to see if needling would be a viable option to further treat my scars. I can personally testify that my skin would turn even more red than it already was and would peel like crazy a few days afterwards. That was my first experience with skin needling, the second was a 2 to 3mm Dermapen treatment in April 2014, which caused additional milia and redness that would continue on for more than 2 weeks, which wasn’t at all pleasurable! Although these treatments didn’t cause any long term adverse affects, in hindsight I should have waited for at least 6 months before doing any serious needling because it took that long for the redness to subside from the laser treatment. It sounds really stupid, but I did’t took any clear before/after pictures during that time. Having not picked up on needling because of the negative experiences and minimal perceivable results, I put all my hope in an expensive procedure called Recell. At that time I still had a job, but in the beginning of 2015 they had to let me go because of financial setbacks of the company, rendering my plan for Recell unfeasible. It was at that time that needling came back into the picture and I just heard that a new product called “Derminator" was available at Owndoc. It is some kind of Dermapen, but without causing the so-called micro-tearing which is typical of the Derma Roller and Dermapen. On paper it sounded all great so I ordered the machine and tested at 0,25mm depth, following a freshly prepared vitamin C application. There weren’t any negative adverse effects and I even noticed a nice glow in the days afterwards. Although my general impression was positive, it would take another 5 months until the very first real treatment described in this review.
1st treatment:
The aim for this series of treatment is to find out if derma needling is a viable option against post-laser adverse effects, as well as a way of treating existing acne scarring. I performed the first Derminator treatment at home on the 12th of june 2015, according to a slightly adapted protocol that I used from Owndoc. Note: this isn’t based on any medical advise, so don’t blame me if it doesn’t work for your particular situation if you choose to try it.
1) Prepping the skin using freshly prepared vitamin C solution following a special retinol ointment application every night for at least 5 days beforehand.
2) Steambath just before needling to soften the skin. (I actually skipped this step the first time)
3) Applying optional numbing agent. (I can stand the pain though)
4) Performing the treatment, taking all neccesary hygienic precautions like cleaning the face with alcohol.
5) Rinsing off any residual blood and air-dry the face, not using a towel or tissue.
6) Applying special retinol ointment using sterile latex gloves, applying this daily until the redness decreases substantially.
7) After the first day, also massaging the skin using vitamin C + copper peptide serum and continuing this for another 3 to 5 days.
8) Resume normal moisturizer after the redness has subsided.
Afterwards I made sure to clean the unit and the needle cartridge according to the instructions from the manual. My face was very red and I had a lot of pinpoint bleeding. The needle depth was 1,5mm and the treatment itself took roughly 5 minutes. After three days, the redness was almost completely gone, making it possible to perform the treatment over a long weekend. I’m planning to repeat this every 3 weeks, following a skin update on RS shortly after. I might introduce the suction cup method for the tethered scars next time, but I doubt they will improve any ice-pick scarring though.
Replies (5)
June 24, 2015
Are you still red?
June 24, 2015
As I stated in my review, the redness was gone in about 3 days. But it can take a lot longer after laser complications, like it did with me back in 2014. I have no record of any improvement at that time, because I chose not to focus on my skin back then.
June 25, 2015
Good luck dutchguy and thank you for the info. I've had 12 Dermaroller sessions done by a trained esthetician in Chicago. I think it has helped improve some of the damage done by a Vbeam laser. I've been curious about Recell and I hope it gets approved in the U.S. soon.
June 26, 2015
Hi Cjjr, are your still needling as of now? Glad to hear that you are another example of people who are having succes with needling after laser damage. We need more of those stories! I also wanted to let you know that Avita decided to split Recell into several categories. For aesthetics, they are advertising "ReNovaCell" as a specific treatment of scars resulting from cosmetic misadventure, probably in anticipation of FDA approval in the US shortly. This proves that "cosmetic misadventure" is now a market in itself which doesn't actually surprise me, judging from all the horror stories surfacing here.
July 3, 2015
No unfortunately not. I could probably live with the scarring but the asymmetry from the fat loss and the hyperpigmentation had literally made me sick to my stomach. Everytime I look in the mirror I get nauseous. I know for a fact a facelift and fillers would help but I can't afford to keep paying for fillers. Then there's fat transfer which runs the risk of reabsorption and other issues. Those too aren't permanent lasting 2-5 heads according to studies. Funny quote I read about fat transfer "The good ones leave and the bad ones stay." This entire mess has left me living like a hermit for 2 years.
July 3, 2015
I need to write my own review. I actually have pictures that the laser doc took the day of right before the procedure, then immediately after, then a month later, followed by 16 months later. The texture issues / lines / wrinkling is difficult to capture on camera but the fat loss and hyperpigmentation is apparent. I'll probably go about censoring the photos sometime today and write the review soon.
July 3, 2015
I can only blame myself for this. I had a completely clear complexion prior to this and my own vanity has destroyed the person I was. I too signed a waiver stating that I understood the risks of the procedure. However nowhere in that waiver did they list fat loss as a side effect. If I could prove it I'd sue the hospital that I had it done at along with the dermatologist.
July 3, 2015
I think my dermatologist knows she messed up because she did offer me my money back. A lot of good that few hundred dollars does to alleviate the pain and suffering of thousands of dollars worth of physical damage and a priceless amount of emotional.
July 3, 2015
Yes, please do write a review. This was one of the hardest things for me to do but it felt good to warn people about the damage of these lasers and share my story. It was then that I realized how many other people were out there with damage but still haven't and probably won't write a review. I wish they had... Perhaps it would have helped steer me away from the procedure. I like to think about the people that I'm raising awareness to.
July 3, 2015
There was another patient of Glasgold's who had horrible results and damage who could have warned me before I used him. I think of her often and how she could have prevented the significant damage I have on my face now from his "handiwork." It is so important to review these surgeons, as it's our responsibility to others to save them from making a bad choice that could impact them forever. It reminds me of bullying, how many people do nothing, look the other way, and then there are people who stand up and do the right thing.
July 3, 2015
Sorry johnny. I totally understand. I can't believe how many comments I've posted on Real Self. It's been like therapy to talk to others who understand this. I hope you do post a review. It does make a difference and this is one of the few places you can find the truth about the risks of lasers. I've been using Alpha Hydrox 12% AHA cream. I had really good results with it a few years ago so I figured I'd give it another shot. There's so many lotions and potions out there that you'll go broke trying to find something that might work. And it's cheap on Amazon. You can feel it working. I almost can't tolerate it sometimes so start slow and spot test it first. I got many compliments years ago when I used it. So it does work. Not sure if it'll help with scarring but we shall see. I'll post the results in a few months. Good luck.
July 3, 2015
The thing that bothers me the most about reviews of fat transfers on this site is how little people tend to update and follow-up on their reviews. Of course fat transfers are going to look good immediately after. They can even look good 3-10 months after but then they can go horribly bad within a 10 year period of time. Transferred fat can migrate, turn lumpy, reabsorb, etc... If there's a doctor out there that tells you that fat transfer is permanent run the other way. Yes if it turns lumpy and hard it's permanent because the fat has died and become encapsulated. At that point fat would need to be cut out if steroid and 5fu injections don't work. Your results with Glasgold are not abnormal what is abnormal is his unwillingness and inability to fix the damage that he caused.
June 25, 2015
Thank you for your review. I look forward to following you on your path to improve laser damaged skin.
July 8, 2015
Be sure and read the instructions for the frequency of derma stamping. The Derminator instructions indicate that you should only needle every 3 to 4 weeks if you are using a 1.5 needle. Your skin needs time to heal. If you do it more frequently, you may cause permanent damage to your skin. More is not better in this case.
July 14, 2015
Try Renu28- redox signaling molecules gel. I love it! Safe, effective, 4 ingredients, 5-star rating by Dermatest. Empoweryourcells.teamasea.com
Replies (5)
The testimonials at owndoc speaks for themselves. The ones who keeps on going will eventually see results. So keep it up !
I have just invested in a Derminator myself, and I´ll be in it for the long run. If it takes 1 or 2 years of suffering each month, I´m willing to trade that for a life with minimal scaring.
I have a feeling that you will agree :)
but that was on dutchguys forum not yours so apologies for the confusion
How did it go for you? Any good results? Still using it? Thank you.